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smibboI looked at the ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
childfree journal. Bleh.
The most obvious question is: if being "child-free" is your choice and everyone should respect that, then why isn't my being "child-happy" a respectable choice as well?
I don't bitch and rant about my clueless friends who have occasionally been VERY ignorant and disrespectful of my child-happy lifestyle. I assume they are just ignorant and try to school them.
Eh... most of those people are really just bitching about badly-behaved children/parents anyway. They are mostly upset by the usual-gang-of-idiots that spoil our landscape but they prejudicially lump those jerks into a category that includes plenty of perfectly nice and respectful people: parents.
Yeah yeah, I'm a breeder, but I rear my children to have some politeness (something sorely lacking in our society as a whole), dignity and respect for all life. I can't see that those people in that community have a lot of dignity or respect for others anyway. Just an unhealthy dose of embittered selfishness that lashes out at a conveniant target because of a bunch of fuckwits they encounter occasionally.
I hate spoiled/ill-mannered kids as much as anyone. I REALLY get angry about bad parenting. But I don't practice anti-breederism. A few (or even a bunch) of bad apples is not going to turn me prejudiced.
I'm a breeder purely by choice. I'm also not prejudiced by choice. MY choice, dig it?
childfree journal. Bleh.The most obvious question is: if being "child-free" is your choice and everyone should respect that, then why isn't my being "child-happy" a respectable choice as well?
I don't bitch and rant about my clueless friends who have occasionally been VERY ignorant and disrespectful of my child-happy lifestyle. I assume they are just ignorant and try to school them.
Eh... most of those people are really just bitching about badly-behaved children/parents anyway. They are mostly upset by the usual-gang-of-idiots that spoil our landscape but they prejudicially lump those jerks into a category that includes plenty of perfectly nice and respectful people: parents.
Yeah yeah, I'm a breeder, but I rear my children to have some politeness (something sorely lacking in our society as a whole), dignity and respect for all life. I can't see that those people in that community have a lot of dignity or respect for others anyway. Just an unhealthy dose of embittered selfishness that lashes out at a conveniant target because of a bunch of fuckwits they encounter occasionally.
I hate spoiled/ill-mannered kids as much as anyone. I REALLY get angry about bad parenting. But I don't practice anti-breederism. A few (or even a bunch) of bad apples is not going to turn me prejudiced.
I'm a breeder purely by choice. I'm also not prejudiced by choice. MY choice, dig it?
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no subject
Date: 2004-03-01 03:39 pm (UTC)I was on that side of the fence up until my daughter was born... Drove me nuts that no matter what my accomplishments in life, nor how happy M and I were with our lifestyle - close friends and family (and even strangers) were of the foregone conclusion that we were "missing out" on not having children.
Having had Kira, I can honestly say, that some of my friends who are of the "child-free" persuasion (and belong to that community) WOULD in fact, be miserable if they were to have kids.
Meanwhile the hostility toward "breeders" comes from a deep rooted anger... as childless by choice, you still have to pay more taxes than your neighbor with kids - no child-tax credit break for you! - and you still have to pay high property taxes to support the education and upbringing of other people's kids... not exactly fair. Plus, as a woman, you are perceived as somehow unsuccessful if you don't manage to have kids...
Nontheless - there WILL be morons in that kind of community who are just as bigoted and biased as the morons who are on the opposing extreme.
Prejudice is easily come by - but usually because it is the most bigoted who are usually the most vocal...
Just my 2 cents...
no subject
Date: 2004-03-01 06:08 pm (UTC)Frankly, unless you extend that argument to include other "groups" then it is an empty argument. My taxes go to paying for bombs I don't approve of, civil service workers that I will never have need of and roads I may never in my life drive upon - so what?
Taxes go to pay for a lot of things that benefit the whole of society - would childfree couples prefer a lot of ignorant kids running around? Part of what they "pay" for is those "sprogs" to be housed seperately during daylight hours so that they are free to work "childfree" all they like. Part of what they pay for is those "yard apes" to be taught enough to get a job someday instead of hanging around shopping malls car-jacking for a living.
I don't buy it. Taxes are a pain for everyone. The conventional logic is that if you make more, you pay more AND if your living expenses are more by necessity then you get a break here and there. Taxes go towards a lot of unfair things that I don't agree with either but I'm not bitching at the recipients of those breaks.
Wanna be childfree? Great. But don't act like you're superior OR discriminated against because of it.
of course
Date: 2004-03-01 06:50 pm (UTC)Re: of course
Date: 2004-03-01 06:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-01 07:01 pm (UTC)I specifically brought up property taxes for a reason - as they are state-level, and not federal. Besides, my brother doesn't get the Child Tax Credit because he makes too much not the other way around - so it's only some of the 'childed' that get the benefit.
Nonetheless, that said, I can see this is a hot-button issue for you - but I respectfully disagree with your conclusion... I believe that those who are child-free by choice because they are aware of their own antipathy toward children, as well as their own lack of desire to raise them ARE, in fact, superior to a number of people who didn't bother to delve into that level of self-examination prior to getting pregnant (intentionally or otherwise.)
Just as I think those who recognize their affinity for children, and fitness as parents, who choose to have children conciously are superior to the "oops - I guess we're pregnant" variety.
Sorry, but I'm an elitist, not an 'equalist' - I know too many bad parents (and thereby rotten kids) who never bothered to give any forethought to whether or not they even wanted to take on that level of commitment...
And I don't believe that they are "acting" discriminated against. Given that I was 36 before I had my first child, I had a fair share of that discrimination thrown my way for many years... Both my husband and I are quite aware of the difference in the way we are treated by MANY people simply because we <quote>finally</quote> decided to have children...
Does that excuse ill-mannered behavior by those in the child-free community? No... but then, I'd say that your first post to the effect that you are "also not prejudiced by choice" is perhaps not 100% true - you certainly seem prejudiced against those who voice the opinions held in that community.
:(
you certainly have a point
Date: 2004-03-02 09:58 am (UTC)In my mind, the name-calling (Breeders, sprogs, yard apes etc) and the kvetching about specific incidents only to summate with "I hate sprogs" and "why do people like children?" is absolutely no different than any other blatent prejudice. All the arguments put forth could easily be said exactly the same by more distasteful folks by substituting "children" and "parents" for African-Americans, Homosexuals, Senior citizens etc
As far as discrimination goes... I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. After all, plenty of able-bodied young white men seem to feel that they are the discriminated party nowadays. I can't say as I recall ever being "discriminated" against before I had kids... renting an apartment? No problem. Getting a loan? No problem. Eating in a restaurant? No problem. Going to the movies? No problem. Seemed like everything around me was tailor-made for the unencumbered. Then again, I lived ina large metropolitan area and that is generally a much more "child-UNfriendly" area no matter where you go.
*shrug* I'm sorry, I just don't see this "discrimination" that people are talking about. If they mean attitudes from friends and relatives, well geez that's not the same as discrimination. If they mean the child-tax credit - like I said, there's LOTS of credits out there that have nothing to do with child-rearing. My taxes go to "supporting" the tax credit for any small business that uses the owners car - again I say so what?
Most of my friends are not parents and have no currents plans to become parents any time soon. They don't seem to feel antagonistic about kids or parenting either.
You're right, I guess... but that's me: I'm going to be antagonistic towards anyone who paints MY life decisions with a broad brush I don't deserve and calls me names in the bargain.
Re: you certainly have a point
Date: 2004-03-02 12:13 pm (UTC)With this I can completely and utterly agree.
There are some terribly opinionated and nasty people that belong to the 'child-free' community here... mostly, tho, I wouldn't like those people no matter what community I came across them in.
But I was trying to gently point out that you were leaning toward painting all of THEM with the same brush - because there were foul-mouthed, rude, unpleasant people therein, that the whole community was thereby despicable.
Not that it's relevant, or even my place to point it out... Just sort of a pet peeve of mine that tends to push my buttons and cause me to jump in both feet first where it is probably not even necessary, let alone welcome.
My apologies if I offended you - I think there is ALWAYS discrimination against "other" - in that so many people feel strongly that their choice is the right one, and that anyone who doesn't agree, must be wrong or clueless... sigh.
In the end - I don't EVER drop in on Child-free here - as it does tend to just be a child-bashing venue, rather than a healthy outlet in my opinion.
Hugs! and thank you for being one of the responsible "breeders" out there :)
Re: you certainly have a point
Date: 2004-03-03 11:54 am (UTC)What I was saying is that the community is MOSTLY a bunch of people whining about bad parenting - that was actually the point of my post (if there was really a "point" - sometimes I don't have a point, I just notice stuff). In the end, I think everyone gets riled about bad parenting and spoiled kids; that doesn't make one anti-child though.
I guess the only prejudiced conclusion I'd come to is that merely joining and participating in an online community for child-free lifestyle sounds like joining a mutual admiration society so far as I can see. Do you really need advice on how to live child-free? *puzzles* or maybe it just seems like a really big bitch-fest. I dunno.
You are right, however... prior to seeing that community (and checking out the subsequent links provided on the info page) I wouldn't have given two thoughts to someone who called themselves "childfree". Now though, I would automatically be wary of someone who proudly announced their affiliation with such a tag. On the other hand, before seeing that community, I never even knew there was such a movement to begin with. I would have thought anyone who decided to not have children was just that - someone who is like everyone else who doesn't have children.
The LJ community is not necessarily representative of people IRL who identify with the same tag; I will remember that and try not to jump to conclusions if I shoudl meet someone who proudly identify themselves to be "child-free"
Those kids...
Date: 2004-03-03 05:26 am (UTC)Some of us have children and one day our kids are going to (hopefully) care for us...but for those that have no children or family around when they reach that point are going to end up in hospitals or with home-care nurses or even in nursing homes. Where do they think all the nurses, doctors and caregivers are going to sprout up from??
So the argument that they are paying taxes for OUR kids isn't quite the case. We are also paying taxes for our kids...and everyone elses. We are paying those taxes to feed and educate the caretakers or tomorrow.
I, by no means, disagree with the choice to be child-free. If you don't want them...PLEASE don't have them. However, I regard prejudice against those with children as being exactly the same against being prejudice against color or religion. It's wrong. Period.
Re: Those kids...
Date: 2004-03-03 11:59 am (UTC)The tax argument doesn't work for me in any case because I see domestic aid as being for the overall benefit of society and people who bitch about "my taxes pay for..." are thinking in the short term. It's a long-term versus short term kinda thing and that just NEVER has a good debate.
Your last sentance is EXACTLY how I feel about the decision to be "childfree" - it's a choice (thank god) and should you choose either way it doesn't give you the right to be judgemental about people who choose the other way.